Talk:Harold Holt

RE-appearance in a eastern American state 'on holiday' ?

I've seen a documentary produced by a Australian agency, ASIO, I think it was, in which the KIDNAPPING, of Holt, was portrayed in a very different light, so while in other places, there might not be mentions of what was uncovered in the processes in/before that documentary, whatever it was called,.. the name escapes me... for me, the RE-APPEARANCE, of him in a eastern united states state, with a then "for the cameras" happy family shot & explination, with a suddenly happy wife, when in Australian papers and in a press release on the radio?tv? she had made an appeal, was distressed, etc,.. didn't KNOW, where he was,..

was then all of a sudden seemingly forgotten about / didn't happen, and we were up in arms over here, about the obviousness of the 'miraculous' re-appearance and discrepancies of especially her, 'memory'.

Utter rubbish, either way, whether only claim, or not, but when the 'explination' was given, for diplomatic purposes,

"we had no doubt at the time". ( one of the interviewed in the documentary )

sorry I can't remember the name.

REW Vurrath (talk) 22:03, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Utter rubbish.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:33, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

End of term date

Holt's term ended not on the day of his death, but on 19 December. I made an edit to reflect this but it was reverted by Ivar the Boneful. At first glance, it might seem obvious that Holt's term ended on 17 December, but it isn't. Holt was missing on 17-18 December and was still recognized as Prime Minister of Australia. His government, the Second Holt Ministry, also remained in office. It was only on 19 December when Holt was legally declared dead in absentia, which made the PM's office vacant and allowed John McEwen to become prime minister. As a result, Holt's term ended on 19 December. Johndavies837 (talk) 19:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

He was declared dead on 19 December, but he wasn't declared to have died on 19 December. He died on 17 December, as per multiple official investigations. His term ended with his death, as dead people can't be prime minister. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 04:38, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. At the time, he was not known with certainty to be dead, as there was no body (and there still isn't). He was missing, that's all. But common sense suggested he was probably dead, and political imperatives could not wait, so on 19 December, not a moment before, he was officially declared "presumed dead". This declaration - not his actual death, whenever it happened - was what caused a vacancy in the prime ministership to occur. That's why his ministry did not conclude till 19 December, and why a new PM could not be sworn in till then.

It was only in 2005 that the Victorian Coroner officially ruled that he did in fact die on 17 December. Prior to then, Victorian law prohibited a finding of death in cases where there was not a body. But that's all sort of irrelevant in retrospect, as the political machinery that caused Holt's government to be terminated on 19 December 1967 operated in 1967, not in 2005. And the date of the termination of his ministry cannot be changed retrospectively. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:34, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Is there a source which states when his term ended?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous claim to make. Dead people cannot be prime minister, his term ended upon his death on 17 December. When his ministry ended is an entirely different matter. The fact that McEwen chose to wait two days before being sworn in does not mean that we throw basic logic out the window. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 08:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I can't believe that this requires a reference, but here we go anyway: "Apart from dismissal, Prime Ministers have ceased to hold office as a result of death, etc. [...] following the presumed death of Prime Minister Holt on 17 December 1967, the Liberal Party chose Senator Gorton as its leader on 10 January 1968". House of Representatives Practice, 7th Edition, Australian Parliamentary Library. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 09:09, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

And HERE is the relevant page from the Parliamentary Handbook showing Holt's commission as PM remained in force till 19 December, on which date it ended and McEwen was sworn in as PM.

That reference from H of R Practice fails completely to mention the premiership of John McEwen, so it can hardly be taken as authoritative in its detail. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:04, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

The difference between the death of Holt and those of Lyons and Curtin was that the precise dates (even the precise moments) of Lyons' and Curtin's deaths were known, and of course their commissions were terminated as soon as the governor-general was advised they had died. Holt's was not like that at all. He was declared "presumed dead" on 19 December (on which date his commission was withdrawn), and officially remained "presumed dead" for the next 37 years, until 2005, at which point his status changed from "presumed dead" to "legally dead". When the 2005 Coroner determined that he had in fact died on 17 December, that was just setting in legal stone what everybody (apart from loopy conspiracy theorists) had always believed ever since he went missing. But none of this alters the fact that he remained legally Prime Minister until 19 December 1967, which all decent references will show, as must Wikipedia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:26, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

The precise moment of Holt's death is known, give or take a few minutes. The fact there was some uncertainty for two days does not change the fact of his time of death. Yes, people may have believed or hoped that he was still alive, but they were mistaken, as he was dead and had thus ceased to hold political office. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 08:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ivar the Boneful: The problem is that you're changing history with facts which weren't known yet. When Holt was missing, the government continued to call him "Prime Minister," the news media continued to call him "Prime Minister," and Holt's government remained in office. This continued until 19 December, when Holt was presumed to have died and his premiership officially came to an end. This is not a normal death in office when the death is immediately known.

I have found multiple official sources:

- The National Archives of Australia says: "Australia's 17th Prime Minister, Harold Holt was in office from 26 January 1966 to 19 December 1967, when he was officially pronounced dead after drowning at sea." Source

- On the "fast facts" page for Holt on the website of the National Archives, it says both his premiership and his term as member of parliament ended on 19 December. Source

- In a 2005 book in association with the National Archives, it says on page 332 that Holt was PM and Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal Party until 19 December. Source

- On the website of the Museum of Australian Democracy, it says Holt died on 17 December, but his term as prime minister ended on 19 December. Source

This should confirm without a doubt that Holt's term ended on 19 December.

Johndavies837 (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. We go with the sources.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

We pick and choose the sources that imply a logical impossibility and ignore all the other ones that back up the universal standard that dead people can't hold political office? It's not Schrodinger's prime minister and it's not North Korea with its Eternal President, he died on 17 December and that's when he ceased to be prime minister. If we're going to make the extraordinary claim that a dead person held political office for two days, then we need a source that specifically says that that was the case. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 08:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

The NAA guide to Harold Holt's archives states: "At 10pm on 18 December 1967, after an extensive search, the Governor General, Lord Casey announced he would terminate Holt’s commission as Prime Minister". Here's a source that does actually state Holt was prime minister after he died: according to this interview, Attorney-General Nigel Bowen "advised the governor-general that if the body of the prime minister was recovered then his commission would be determined by his death [...] Holt was presumed to have died but technically he was still the prime minister. [...] At 10pm the governor-general Lord Casey announced he would terminate Holt's commission as prime minister.". But I think we should follow Bowen's initial advice that ministerial commission terminates upon death and list 17 December (i.e. Lord Casey's termination of commission was unnecessary as Holt was in fact already dead). I wouldn't object to a footnote explaining the situation, but per those sources the date would have to be 18 December. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 08:19, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Again you're reinventing history. Casey made that oral statement late on the night of 18 December. But his formal termination of commission document was not promulgated until the next morning, 19 December. That is the date on which Holt ceased to hold his office. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:07, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ivar the Boneful: I'm confused about your request for sources. My earlier reply included 4 sources, 3 of which are government websites. They show Holt died on 17 December, but his term in office ended on 19 December. Even your own link to the NAA guide backs this up: on page 5 it says Holt's term ended on 19 December when he was declared dead. Your second link, to ABC, acknowledges that even though Holt is presumed to have died, he was missing and technically still prime minister. So we now have 6 sources.

Furthermore, you misrepresented what Attorney General Bowen said. He didn't say Holt's term would be terminated retroactively. He simply discussed a number of possibilities on how to proceed: if Holt's body was found, his death would be confirmed and his commission would be terminated. Another possibility was Holt being found alive. But in the worst case scenario, the leadership crisis would continue, so Bowen's conclusion was that it was up to the Governor-General to make a decision on Holt's commission.

Governor-General Lord Casey announced at 10 p.m. on 18 December that he would terminate Holt's commission and McEwen would become prime minister, but this was a public announcement and the phrasing suggests the formal act had not yet taken place. Considering it was late at night, it's reasonable to assume it happened after midnight or the next morning. But we don't have to assume, because we have multiple sources which confirm Holt's commission ended on 19 December.

A dead person is not supposed to be prime minister, but that doesn't mean their commission is terminated retroactively. I imagine doing so could create legal issues, because anything done by Holt's representatives on 17-18 December could potentially be challenged as illegitimate. A dead officeholder is also not without precedent. For example, U.S. House Majority Leader Hale Boggs is presumed to have died in a plane crash in October 1972, but not only did he win re-election in November, he remained in office as Majority Leader and Congressman for more than 2.5 months. Johndavies837 (talk) 01:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Maybe Holt was Schrodinger's prime minister, and Comet Hale–Bopp was in conjunction with Higgs boson.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:35, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

As there have been no new comments for nearly 2 weeks and everyone except one person agreed, I have gone ahead and changed the date. There's a footnote which includes a link to the National Archives. Johndavies837 (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

TBH, it does read a bit unusual. For two days, a dead person was prime minister of Australia? GoodDay (talk)

Married with Presbyterian forms.

The phrase "married with Presbyterian forms" needs clarification, I think. I couldn't find out what it means using Google. And the link doesn't contain anything relevant. Polar Apposite (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

agree it needs clarification, and have appended just such a tag to the claim in the article. Hope that helps. HiLo48 (talk) 23:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I take it as meaning the service was formally Presbyterian.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It means he was married at a Presbyterian ceremony. Not an uncommon phrasing. ITBF (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Whether it is an uncommon phrasing is irrelevant, IMAO. Anyway, I would dispute that it is not an uncommon phrasing. Polar Apposite (talk) 16:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)